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	<title>Comments on: All by myself&#8230;</title>
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		<title>By: Tesh</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/comment-page-1/#comment-6129</link>
		<dc:creator>Tesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 23:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/#comment-6129</guid>
		<description>Scott pretty much sums up what I was going to point out.  I&#039;ll add a quick clarification that might give perspective:
Are we playing MMORPGs or exploring persistent online worlds?  A persistent online world is just as interesting to solo players as groupies.  Why should any gameplay, in either direction, be forced?

If you want to play the MMORPG game, join an RP server, grab some friends, and play the way you want to.  Don&#039;t ask that an entire online world be altered to fit your vision.  (Which goes for the other side, too, but in my research, the group advocates are far more fussy about this.)  Just as people choose to live differently out here in the real world, they should be able to play the game differently.  They are paying customers, after all.

The lure of &quot;emergent social gameplay&quot; is more on the players&#039; shoulders than the designers&#039; anyways.  If content is there for all players, play the parts that you like and don&#039;t fuss that someone else enjoys a different part.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott pretty much sums up what I was going to point out.  I&#8217;ll add a quick clarification that might give perspective:<br />
Are we playing MMORPGs or exploring persistent online worlds?  A persistent online world is just as interesting to solo players as groupies.  Why should any gameplay, in either direction, be forced?</p>
<p>If you want to play the MMORPG game, join an RP server, grab some friends, and play the way you want to.  Don&#8217;t ask that an entire online world be altered to fit your vision.  (Which goes for the other side, too, but in my research, the group advocates are far more fussy about this.)  Just as people choose to live differently out here in the real world, they should be able to play the game differently.  They are paying customers, after all.</p>
<p>The lure of &#8220;emergent social gameplay&#8221; is more on the players&#8217; shoulders than the designers&#8217; anyways.  If content is there for all players, play the parts that you like and don&#8217;t fuss that someone else enjoys a different part.</p>
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		<title>By: Wolfshead</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/comment-page-1/#comment-5456</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolfshead</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 00:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/#comment-5456</guid>
		<description>Great article! I&#039;ve commented a few times on this over at Random Battle. I&#039;ve also written extensively on the solo phenomenon of new MMO&#039;s like WoW at my blog. It&#039;s great to see the blogosphere starting to get concerned about this issue.

The fact that anyone now can solo from level 1 to level 70 in a Massively Multi-player Online Game without ever once acknowledging another player or grouping is perplexing and frankly cause for alarm.

Upon closer investigation, Blizzard has admitted that the real WoW starts at the level cap which I discussed at length in a previous blog article:

http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=119

They key point here is that according to Blizzard solo players aren&#039;t really playing the real WoW. Those solo levels are the loss leader which entices the player to get caught up and even addicted to the whole thing. Of course many players at the level cap turn to grouping/raiding as they want to keep advancing their characters. Blizzard is counting on this.

MMO&#039;s seem to be devolving to the point where they are nothing more then glorified single-player games that just happen to have other people playing playing the same game and experiencing the exact same content as you.

In another article I talked about how the easy solo part of WoW is not adequately preparing players to play the &quot;real&quot; WoW which starts at the level cap.

http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=108

Soloing is a guilty pleasure but it comes at a cost. You end up with a community of players who lack social skill and who are largely ignorant and inept at playing their classes effectively in groups and raids.

Ultimately it&#039;s going to come full circle as the community starts to further erode, those players that are running around and giving your solo MMO experience &quot;flavor&quot; and &quot;life&quot; are going to be more of a detriment then they are a positive. This is why I have used said that MMO&#039;s are in a state of devolution today in an article I did on the recent Richard Bartle controversy.

http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=129

I predict if the current trends continue MMO&#039;s will be all but unrecognizable in 10 years. This will largely be the result of bringing in more of the lowest common denominator calibre of people into the fold. The MMO community back in the days of UO and EQ was unique and amazing due to it being a niche market at the time. 

Today the current community in MMO&#039;s like WoW are now a part of popular culture and have gone mainstream. Mix that with the anonymity of the Internet and you have a  less then desirable community of players that I personally really don&#039;t want to associate with otherwise known as the Bnet kiddies and Counterstrike FPS crowd.

The only hope for MMO&#039;s to return to a state of quality is for them to return to more of a niche based focus. The problem here is that the current funding model favors development of McMMO&#039;s like WoW. I think what we really need are better development tools so that better and more interesting MMO&#039;s can be made without having to worry about the overhead of programming and setting up the infrastructure. Much like what Photoshop did for computer generated art. It will be interesting to see what Raph Koster&#039;s Metaplace does in this area.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article! I&#8217;ve commented a few times on this over at Random Battle. I&#8217;ve also written extensively on the solo phenomenon of new MMO&#8217;s like WoW at my blog. It&#8217;s great to see the blogosphere starting to get concerned about this issue.</p>
<p>The fact that anyone now can solo from level 1 to level 70 in a Massively Multi-player Online Game without ever once acknowledging another player or grouping is perplexing and frankly cause for alarm.</p>
<p>Upon closer investigation, Blizzard has admitted that the real WoW starts at the level cap which I discussed at length in a previous blog article:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=119" rel="nofollow">http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=119</a></p>
<p>They key point here is that according to Blizzard solo players aren&#8217;t really playing the real WoW. Those solo levels are the loss leader which entices the player to get caught up and even addicted to the whole thing. Of course many players at the level cap turn to grouping/raiding as they want to keep advancing their characters. Blizzard is counting on this.</p>
<p>MMO&#8217;s seem to be devolving to the point where they are nothing more then glorified single-player games that just happen to have other people playing playing the same game and experiencing the exact same content as you.</p>
<p>In another article I talked about how the easy solo part of WoW is not adequately preparing players to play the &#8220;real&#8221; WoW which starts at the level cap.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=108" rel="nofollow">http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=108</a></p>
<p>Soloing is a guilty pleasure but it comes at a cost. You end up with a community of players who lack social skill and who are largely ignorant and inept at playing their classes effectively in groups and raids.</p>
<p>Ultimately it&#8217;s going to come full circle as the community starts to further erode, those players that are running around and giving your solo MMO experience &#8220;flavor&#8221; and &#8220;life&#8221; are going to be more of a detriment then they are a positive. This is why I have used said that MMO&#8217;s are in a state of devolution today in an article I did on the recent Richard Bartle controversy.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=129" rel="nofollow">http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/?p=129</a></p>
<p>I predict if the current trends continue MMO&#8217;s will be all but unrecognizable in 10 years. This will largely be the result of bringing in more of the lowest common denominator calibre of people into the fold. The MMO community back in the days of UO and EQ was unique and amazing due to it being a niche market at the time. </p>
<p>Today the current community in MMO&#8217;s like WoW are now a part of popular culture and have gone mainstream. Mix that with the anonymity of the Internet and you have a  less then desirable community of players that I personally really don&#8217;t want to associate with otherwise known as the Bnet kiddies and Counterstrike FPS crowd.</p>
<p>The only hope for MMO&#8217;s to return to a state of quality is for them to return to more of a niche based focus. The problem here is that the current funding model favors development of McMMO&#8217;s like WoW. I think what we really need are better development tools so that better and more interesting MMO&#8217;s can be made without having to worry about the overhead of programming and setting up the infrastructure. Much like what Photoshop did for computer generated art. It will be interesting to see what Raph Koster&#8217;s Metaplace does in this area.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/comment-page-1/#comment-5434</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:52:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/#comment-5434</guid>
		<description>No, I&#039;m not &quot;wrong.&quot; You may disagree with my outlook, my opinion, or both, but that makes neither of us &quot;wrong&quot; nor &quot;right.&quot;

Add up your time from waking til you sleep. How much time is spent more or less alone? Many people even have jobs where, yes we&#039;re working or near other people, but everyone is doing their own jobs. Solo. But able to interact.

That&#039;s the key. MMOG&#039;s are about many people playing and being able to *interact* which does not mean grouping and grouping alone. I&#039;ve known many people in different games who were the most friendly, outgoing and social people in-game you could want, yet they exclusively soloed; refusing to group with anyone, or perhaps only their spouse, whatever. Similarly, I&#039;ve known many players who grouped constantly but never said a word, never contributed much to the group other than (hopefully) fulfilling the (minimum usually) tasks of their role/class. We&#039;ve all met those people, I&#039;m certain.

Note your last paragraph: you&#039;re talking &quot;interacting&quot; just like I am. The difference is that I&#039;m not latching onto the &quot;interaction = grouping&quot; mentality that so many group-only people have.

Offhand, I&#039;m not recalling ever seeing so many posts on blogs and forums from the solo crowd. Why do the group-only crowd worry so much about how other people play their game? Are soloers affecting your game at all? No? Didn&#039;t think so. Are groupers affecting the soloers game? Of course not; they&#039;re not grouped with them. We&#039;re all paying $15/month to enjoy the game. Being unique individuals, we each enjoy the game and its various aspects differently. That&#039;s ok, unlike more narrow-focused game like shooters, RTS, etc. these RPG&#039;s are built to encourage that.

Look at it this way: you can group for so-called &quot;solo content&quot; but you can&#039;t solo group content. Therefore, don&#039;t the groupers &quot;win&quot; by having so much more groupable content available?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I&#8217;m not &#8220;wrong.&#8221; You may disagree with my outlook, my opinion, or both, but that makes neither of us &#8220;wrong&#8221; nor &#8220;right.&#8221;</p>
<p>Add up your time from waking til you sleep. How much time is spent more or less alone? Many people even have jobs where, yes we&#8217;re working or near other people, but everyone is doing their own jobs. Solo. But able to interact.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the key. MMOG&#8217;s are about many people playing and being able to *interact* which does not mean grouping and grouping alone. I&#8217;ve known many people in different games who were the most friendly, outgoing and social people in-game you could want, yet they exclusively soloed; refusing to group with anyone, or perhaps only their spouse, whatever. Similarly, I&#8217;ve known many players who grouped constantly but never said a word, never contributed much to the group other than (hopefully) fulfilling the (minimum usually) tasks of their role/class. We&#8217;ve all met those people, I&#8217;m certain.</p>
<p>Note your last paragraph: you&#8217;re talking &#8220;interacting&#8221; just like I am. The difference is that I&#8217;m not latching onto the &#8220;interaction = grouping&#8221; mentality that so many group-only people have.</p>
<p>Offhand, I&#8217;m not recalling ever seeing so many posts on blogs and forums from the solo crowd. Why do the group-only crowd worry so much about how other people play their game? Are soloers affecting your game at all? No? Didn&#8217;t think so. Are groupers affecting the soloers game? Of course not; they&#8217;re not grouped with them. We&#8217;re all paying $15/month to enjoy the game. Being unique individuals, we each enjoy the game and its various aspects differently. That&#8217;s ok, unlike more narrow-focused game like shooters, RTS, etc. these RPG&#8217;s are built to encourage that.</p>
<p>Look at it this way: you can group for so-called &#8220;solo content&#8221; but you can&#8217;t solo group content. Therefore, don&#8217;t the groupers &#8220;win&#8221; by having so much more groupable content available?</p>
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		<title>By: Vimes</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/comment-page-1/#comment-5427</link>
		<dc:creator>Vimes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/#comment-5427</guid>
		<description>Scott is so wrong its funny - we evolved in communitites and family groups and its a small snapshot period of gaming, where games transferred to computers that soling became popular. Prior to that all games involved teams or another opponent and there was no AI in chess pieces. Silly statement sorry.

Its the nature of humans to group together and socialise and the computer world is going to have to catch up if it wants to attract spenders and players outside of a small clique who take games seriously. Believe me - most folk on this planet would think we are crazy just for bothering to reply to a internet story - we are the minority as per. 

Yes I can imagine some soloing is fun, maybe, and its should not be discouraged, but like real life, you get more benefits when you cooperate. It could also be mooted that those who prefer solo play might not like the inevitable comparisons that social gaming brings and we all know the cliche that this &#039;fashion&#039; for solo gaming was created and supported by the typically least social folk in the 70&#039;s and 80&#039;s. Now the majority is joining these pioneering loners and outcasts there are more social folk within such groupings. This leads to more demand for net 2.0 interactions and such - which is happening now. 

:)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott is so wrong its funny &#8211; we evolved in communitites and family groups and its a small snapshot period of gaming, where games transferred to computers that soling became popular. Prior to that all games involved teams or another opponent and there was no AI in chess pieces. Silly statement sorry.</p>
<p>Its the nature of humans to group together and socialise and the computer world is going to have to catch up if it wants to attract spenders and players outside of a small clique who take games seriously. Believe me &#8211; most folk on this planet would think we are crazy just for bothering to reply to a internet story &#8211; we are the minority as per. </p>
<p>Yes I can imagine some soloing is fun, maybe, and its should not be discouraged, but like real life, you get more benefits when you cooperate. It could also be mooted that those who prefer solo play might not like the inevitable comparisons that social gaming brings and we all know the cliche that this &#8216;fashion&#8217; for solo gaming was created and supported by the typically least social folk in the 70&#8217;s and 80&#8217;s. Now the majority is joining these pioneering loners and outcasts there are more social folk within such groupings. This leads to more demand for net 2.0 interactions and such &#8211; which is happening now. </p>
<p> <img src='http://www.mmocrunch.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/comment-page-1/#comment-5417</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 13:31:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/#comment-5417</guid>
		<description>&quot;Can&#039;t&quot; get your head around it, or &quot;won&#039;t?&quot; 

It&#039;s because we&#039;re humans, and humans spend the majority of their lives solo. MMO&#039;s aren&#039;t like loading up a game of TF2 where the game groups you and there&#039;s shoot shoot, bang bang and that&#039;s all there is to the entire game.

When you login to your MMO are you automatically grouped every moment until you logout? If not, then &quot;zomg, you&#039;re playing solo in a multi-user environment.&quot; 

The group-only crowd loves to say &quot;MMO&#039;s are for grouping, soloers should play Oblivion.&quot; It&#039;s all or nothing. Ok, what if I reverse that: everyone (per faction) on the entire server must be grouped at all times. All or nothing. One huge-ass group, no choice in the matter. You still gonna tell me people won&#039;t solo while grouped? Happens all the time already. Not to mention: login to WoW, GW or any other game with a questionable community and tell me with a straight face: you *want* to group with *all* those people? Seriously?

Some people only PvE. Some PvP. Some only solo. Some only group. And finally, some like myself, do it all. That&#039;s allowed, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Can&#8217;t&#8221; get your head around it, or &#8220;won&#8217;t?&#8221; </p>
<p>It&#8217;s because we&#8217;re humans, and humans spend the majority of their lives solo. MMO&#8217;s aren&#8217;t like loading up a game of TF2 where the game groups you and there&#8217;s shoot shoot, bang bang and that&#8217;s all there is to the entire game.</p>
<p>When you login to your MMO are you automatically grouped every moment until you logout? If not, then &#8220;zomg, you&#8217;re playing solo in a multi-user environment.&#8221; </p>
<p>The group-only crowd loves to say &#8220;MMO&#8217;s are for grouping, soloers should play Oblivion.&#8221; It&#8217;s all or nothing. Ok, what if I reverse that: everyone (per faction) on the entire server must be grouped at all times. All or nothing. One huge-ass group, no choice in the matter. You still gonna tell me people won&#8217;t solo while grouped? Happens all the time already. Not to mention: login to WoW, GW or any other game with a questionable community and tell me with a straight face: you *want* to group with *all* those people? Seriously?</p>
<p>Some people only PvE. Some PvP. Some only solo. Some only group. And finally, some like myself, do it all. That&#8217;s allowed, right?</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/comment-page-1/#comment-5359</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 01:42:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/#comment-5359</guid>
		<description>&quot;When they released MMORPG - I too thought of property, guilds, traders, wars and such all existing in one world, requiring mature repsonses as the effect of losing would be severe etc. Instead I found single player gaming captured within instancing and mages hitting cows on the head for experience…. I withdrew back into MMORTS and FPS.&quot;

*Chuckle* That&#039;s about the size of it.

Honestly, I just can&#039;t get my head around people who want to play solo in a multi-user environment. It doesn&#039;t make sense to me. It seems to be, as I said in the piece, that they want the benefits of playing solo, and only seem to want other people around to show off their &quot;phat lewt&quot; to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;When they released MMORPG &#8211; I too thought of property, guilds, traders, wars and such all existing in one world, requiring mature repsonses as the effect of losing would be severe etc. Instead I found single player gaming captured within instancing and mages hitting cows on the head for experience…. I withdrew back into MMORTS and FPS.&#8221;</p>
<p>*Chuckle* That&#8217;s about the size of it.</p>
<p>Honestly, I just can&#8217;t get my head around people who want to play solo in a multi-user environment. It doesn&#8217;t make sense to me. It seems to be, as I said in the piece, that they want the benefits of playing solo, and only seem to want other people around to show off their &#8220;phat lewt&#8221; to.</p>
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		<title>By: Morninglark</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/comment-page-1/#comment-5321</link>
		<dc:creator>Morninglark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/#comment-5321</guid>
		<description>I just wrote a response to this article. 
http://www.morninglark.com/dear-designers-fix-grouping.html

It is an interesting topic to be sure. I think many players feel that games lack the dynamics for good grouping.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just wrote a response to this article.<br />
<a href="http://www.morninglark.com/dear-designers-fix-grouping.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.morninglark.com/dear-designers-fix-grouping.html</a></p>
<p>It is an interesting topic to be sure. I think many players feel that games lack the dynamics for good grouping.</p>
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		<title>By: Openedge1</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/comment-page-1/#comment-5313</link>
		<dc:creator>Openedge1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/#comment-5313</guid>
		<description>If LOTRO was not so god awful boring, it would work.
But, I agree with the poster who stated the Guild Wars comment.
This game, on busy days can be so FULL of people, and the option of solo or group quests is the best in my opinion.
And with the new Hero system, you are NEVER bored either.

The challenge now in Guild Wars to run the dungeons and Missions on hard mode adds some challenge that is missing in a lot of games also.

If AoC would have followed the one server many instances setup of Guild Wars, I honestly think we would see less whining about how bad of a game it is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If LOTRO was not so god awful boring, it would work.<br />
But, I agree with the poster who stated the Guild Wars comment.<br />
This game, on busy days can be so FULL of people, and the option of solo or group quests is the best in my opinion.<br />
And with the new Hero system, you are NEVER bored either.</p>
<p>The challenge now in Guild Wars to run the dungeons and Missions on hard mode adds some challenge that is missing in a lot of games also.</p>
<p>If AoC would have followed the one server many instances setup of Guild Wars, I honestly think we would see less whining about how bad of a game it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/comment-page-1/#comment-5311</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:13:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/#comment-5311</guid>
		<description>Grouping is only a small part of the MMO experience.
The precursor to MMO&#039;s, MUD&#039;s, had virtually no group concept.
Sure you could be in the same room, and attack the same monster, but it was mostly worthless and you got no bonus for doing so.

No, grouping is not what attracted people to MUD&#039;s. It was just being around other people. The social experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grouping is only a small part of the MMO experience.<br />
The precursor to MMO&#8217;s, MUD&#8217;s, had virtually no group concept.<br />
Sure you could be in the same room, and attack the same monster, but it was mostly worthless and you got no bonus for doing so.</p>
<p>No, grouping is not what attracted people to MUD&#8217;s. It was just being around other people. The social experience.</p>
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		<title>By: Morninglark</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/comment-page-1/#comment-5310</link>
		<dc:creator>Morninglark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:12:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/07/28/all-by-myself/#comment-5310</guid>
		<description>It is interesting, that you mention that players seem to want it to be an RPG with OOC channels.  I was in a game the other day and thought to myself, &quot;Oh my God, this is just Diablo2 with a chat room&quot;.

I agree with Ryan Shwayder, that we need solo friendly games, that encourage grouping with perks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is interesting, that you mention that players seem to want it to be an RPG with OOC channels.  I was in a game the other day and thought to myself, &#8220;Oh my God, this is just Diablo2 with a chat room&#8221;.</p>
<p>I agree with Ryan Shwayder, that we need solo friendly games, that encourage grouping with perks.</p>
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