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	<title>Comments on: Return of the Sandbox</title>
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	<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/</link>
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		<title>By: Jordan</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/comment-page-1/#comment-23965</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Mar 2009 02:04:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/#comment-23965</guid>
		<description>Hmm... I&#039;m certainly glad I&#039;m not the only person that feels this way... WoW is not a game i could play, because after 3 hours of grinding, I get like.... 4 levels... and you hardly notice a difference in skill between levels... I love the skill advancement that they use in Darkfall and Wurm(a terrible game).... its just so much more realistic....What I did like about Wurm, was that you could just plop down where ever you like and build a house.... a mansion... a city.... a capital... a country even.... I loved that.... but they did a really bad job of implicating it.... I think DF needs to trash the bindstone thing and adopt Wurm&#039;s method of player cities, and then we will have an awesome game.... I don&#039;t know, just my thoughts on things....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm&#8230; I&#8217;m certainly glad I&#8217;m not the only person that feels this way&#8230; WoW is not a game i could play, because after 3 hours of grinding, I get like&#8230;. 4 levels&#8230; and you hardly notice a difference in skill between levels&#8230; I love the skill advancement that they use in Darkfall and Wurm(a terrible game)&#8230;. its just so much more realistic&#8230;.What I did like about Wurm, was that you could just plop down where ever you like and build a house&#8230;. a mansion&#8230; a city&#8230;. a capital&#8230; a country even&#8230;. I loved that&#8230;. but they did a really bad job of implicating it&#8230;. I think DF needs to trash the bindstone thing and adopt Wurm&#8217;s method of player cities, and then we will have an awesome game&#8230;. I don&#8217;t know, just my thoughts on things&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: MrMe</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/comment-page-1/#comment-18082</link>
		<dc:creator>MrMe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 03:21:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/#comment-18082</guid>
		<description>Fable is more sandbox than most mmorpgs are, isn&#039;t that fking sad?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fable is more sandbox than most mmorpgs are, isn&#8217;t that fking sad?</p>
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		<title>By: psychorob68</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/comment-page-1/#comment-10424</link>
		<dc:creator>psychorob68</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/#comment-10424</guid>
		<description>well lets hope darkfall delivers what it has been promising for years now. is should be out this year. some euro gaming sites are already taking pre-orders. it could be the greatest sandbox to date.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well lets hope darkfall delivers what it has been promising for years now. is should be out this year. some euro gaming sites are already taking pre-orders. it could be the greatest sandbox to date.</p>
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		<title>By: Aadraen</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/comment-page-1/#comment-7937</link>
		<dc:creator>Aadraen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/#comment-7937</guid>
		<description>In my opinion, WoW has destroyed any hope of an &#039;intelligent&quot; MMORPG, because it is all about the money.  Every gaming company out there wants the &#039;WoW&#039; scenario, a huge game, lots of subscriptions, equals lots of money.  Sadly, these game makers are willing to dumb down every game to be just like WoW in hopes of making the cash that Blizzard did.  
I find it pathetic, that we always have to cater to the &quot;kids&quot; who simply MUST have the instant gratification of gaining a set level, raiding the same keep over and over for their &#039;1337 g33r&#039;, and generally wanting everything handed to them on a plate instead of working for it and having fun.  
SWG had its bad points in the beginning, but if I sit and look back at the system, the way things were laid out insofar as the level system, the economy, professions, etc.. I can honestly say, I felt it was innovative.  All was well until WoW came out, and we see what happened to SWG, the NGE, which drove a lot of people away screaming in droves.
The best thing  a company can do is step away from the WoW clones, and stick their vision.  If SWG had done that, it would be a totally different ballgame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my opinion, WoW has destroyed any hope of an &#8216;intelligent&#8221; MMORPG, because it is all about the money.  Every gaming company out there wants the &#8216;WoW&#8217; scenario, a huge game, lots of subscriptions, equals lots of money.  Sadly, these game makers are willing to dumb down every game to be just like WoW in hopes of making the cash that Blizzard did.<br />
I find it pathetic, that we always have to cater to the &#8220;kids&#8221; who simply MUST have the instant gratification of gaining a set level, raiding the same keep over and over for their &#8216;1337 g33r&#8217;, and generally wanting everything handed to them on a plate instead of working for it and having fun.<br />
SWG had its bad points in the beginning, but if I sit and look back at the system, the way things were laid out insofar as the level system, the economy, professions, etc.. I can honestly say, I felt it was innovative.  All was well until WoW came out, and we see what happened to SWG, the NGE, which drove a lot of people away screaming in droves.<br />
The best thing  a company can do is step away from the WoW clones, and stick their vision.  If SWG had done that, it would be a totally different ballgame.</p>
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		<title>By: MMORPG - MMOCrunch - World of Warcraft &#187; Waxing lyrical on Raph Koster</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/comment-page-1/#comment-7923</link>
		<dc:creator>MMORPG - MMOCrunch - World of Warcraft &#187; Waxing lyrical on Raph Koster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 21:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/#comment-7923</guid>
		<description>[...] time for the social aspects that MMORPGs can offer. They are half the reason I think MMORPGs are heading in the wrong direction. But I digress, dear [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] time for the social aspects that MMORPGs can offer. They are half the reason I think MMORPGs are heading in the wrong direction. But I digress, dear [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Erithil</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/comment-page-1/#comment-7778</link>
		<dc:creator>Erithil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/#comment-7778</guid>
		<description>Using SWG as your baseline is is a two-sided coin.  Let&#039;s talk about the good first.

SWG had some potential from the character development aspect.  I fully agree that the divergence from the leveling of characters and no archetypes was a great system.  One great way to develop a game is to try your best to immitate real life, and in real life, we are not tanks, dps&#039;ers, and healers...we know how to do things...like use guns, write code, engage in dialogue, or spell (or in my case, not spell).  SWG did this, it didn&#039;t contrive an arbitrary system of archetypes that made for a balanced rule-set and put us in the middle of it, it gave us a rationalized skill set we could develop ourselves around which was balanced.

It had it&#039;s flaws, of course, as the blogger pointed out.  It allowed for builds that could become &quot;kits&quot; which provided maximum efficiency for combat builds, healing builds, etc.  But that is the nature of a game and it is at that point where a game will reach it&#039;s fulcrum point and the elegance of it&#039;s design becomes evident.  It is also at that point where careful patches need to be implemented so that fair play is ensured, and SWG strived to do that.

But for the concept of sandbox tools, I completely disagree that SWG ever provided us anything meaningful.  I continuously lobbied whoever would listen to me for useful tools, and that usually meant I lobbied to my blank computer screen.

What does &quot;sandbox&quot; even mean?  Perhaps it is meant to mean something slightly different to each of us, but for me it means an environment where we as players are allowed a certain amount of control over the game to provide our own content.  SWG had nothing of the sort, and only during it&#039;s death throes after the Combat Upgrade and New Game Enhancements did the developers try to give players tools.

If I, as a player, want to create a role-playing event, the real heart of a sandbox system, for my guild, I need the tools to do it.  I need to be able to spawn NPC mobs, I need to be able to create the backdrops, settings, and props that facilitate my story and adventure.  SWG was wonderfully designed from launch to do this!  The system allowed x,y,z placement of assets, dialogue assignments, and more.

Yes, I realize that it required careful management so as to not allow for exploitation by inconsiderate or downright wicked players looking to ruin other people&#039;s enjoyment.  But those things would have been managable.  Think about the ability of setting up a quest for your friends to gather resources and deliver them to an NPC you spawn in Coronet, and that NPC actually must be traded the resources.  Or being able to spawn a group of Bynare Pirates on Talus that your friends must fight (and sandbox protection protocols prevent others from attacking them).  Or being able to craft junk items and dropping them in spawned bunkers that must be found and recovered.  Or setting up a conversation arc with an NPC you hide in the wilderness on Lok.

This is a sandbox toolset.  This is player control.  And it transcends the &quot;kill 10 chunkers&quot; or &quot;deliver this holodisk to the contact in Nashel&quot; missions that are so rudimentary in the game.  It allows players to make content the developers never could; it allows players to make adventures they become personally vested in.

And all of that can happen in ANY MMO over and above the typical content that is put in to attract and keep the typical &quot;grind to the level cap and raid&quot; crowd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Using SWG as your baseline is is a two-sided coin.  Let&#8217;s talk about the good first.</p>
<p>SWG had some potential from the character development aspect.  I fully agree that the divergence from the leveling of characters and no archetypes was a great system.  One great way to develop a game is to try your best to immitate real life, and in real life, we are not tanks, dps&#8217;ers, and healers&#8230;we know how to do things&#8230;like use guns, write code, engage in dialogue, or spell (or in my case, not spell).  SWG did this, it didn&#8217;t contrive an arbitrary system of archetypes that made for a balanced rule-set and put us in the middle of it, it gave us a rationalized skill set we could develop ourselves around which was balanced.</p>
<p>It had it&#8217;s flaws, of course, as the blogger pointed out.  It allowed for builds that could become &#8220;kits&#8221; which provided maximum efficiency for combat builds, healing builds, etc.  But that is the nature of a game and it is at that point where a game will reach it&#8217;s fulcrum point and the elegance of it&#8217;s design becomes evident.  It is also at that point where careful patches need to be implemented so that fair play is ensured, and SWG strived to do that.</p>
<p>But for the concept of sandbox tools, I completely disagree that SWG ever provided us anything meaningful.  I continuously lobbied whoever would listen to me for useful tools, and that usually meant I lobbied to my blank computer screen.</p>
<p>What does &#8220;sandbox&#8221; even mean?  Perhaps it is meant to mean something slightly different to each of us, but for me it means an environment where we as players are allowed a certain amount of control over the game to provide our own content.  SWG had nothing of the sort, and only during it&#8217;s death throes after the Combat Upgrade and New Game Enhancements did the developers try to give players tools.</p>
<p>If I, as a player, want to create a role-playing event, the real heart of a sandbox system, for my guild, I need the tools to do it.  I need to be able to spawn NPC mobs, I need to be able to create the backdrops, settings, and props that facilitate my story and adventure.  SWG was wonderfully designed from launch to do this!  The system allowed x,y,z placement of assets, dialogue assignments, and more.</p>
<p>Yes, I realize that it required careful management so as to not allow for exploitation by inconsiderate or downright wicked players looking to ruin other people&#8217;s enjoyment.  But those things would have been managable.  Think about the ability of setting up a quest for your friends to gather resources and deliver them to an NPC you spawn in Coronet, and that NPC actually must be traded the resources.  Or being able to spawn a group of Bynare Pirates on Talus that your friends must fight (and sandbox protection protocols prevent others from attacking them).  Or being able to craft junk items and dropping them in spawned bunkers that must be found and recovered.  Or setting up a conversation arc with an NPC you hide in the wilderness on Lok.</p>
<p>This is a sandbox toolset.  This is player control.  And it transcends the &#8220;kill 10 chunkers&#8221; or &#8220;deliver this holodisk to the contact in Nashel&#8221; missions that are so rudimentary in the game.  It allows players to make content the developers never could; it allows players to make adventures they become personally vested in.</p>
<p>And all of that can happen in ANY MMO over and above the typical content that is put in to attract and keep the typical &#8220;grind to the level cap and raid&#8221; crowd.</p>
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		<title>By: Devir</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/comment-page-1/#comment-6942</link>
		<dc:creator>Devir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:25:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/#comment-6942</guid>
		<description>I started playing MMORPGs with Ultima Online. This game in my opinion had and still has the best character system out there. Even though EA tweaked it and made more cubby hole rules in the past years. The system was very organic and natural to say the least. I could cast spells and then switch to archer on a whim simply by using those relevant skills. It made the game deep and rewarding. There was no fixed character class. 

I later played EverQuest with it&#039;s more fixed Wizard, Warrior, Druid... Class system. You were a Wizard when you started, and a Wizard when you canceled your account. Unless you make an Alternate character, you were stuck. This was ok. 

Star Wars Galaxies  rescued me from Everquest, I and soon quite happily canceled my EQ account. Originaly SOE had banked on the fact that there were millions of Rabid Star Wars fans out there dying to live in the universe and take on adventures of their own. So they skimped on questing, and instead focused on making the game look really pretty. Their classes point based system worked out nice at first. I could be a master in 3 very  different professions if I so desired. But could only really excell in one fixed one if I chose to go the elite profession path. THis added huge depth to the game. 

The failing point with SWG was in fact it&#039;s huge open worlds with nothing to do (and horrible city street designs). They had thought the fans and players would create their own content and run the show as they saw fit. But on launch people logged into the game, got confused and said &quot;wow it looks pretty, what do I do now?&quot;. SOE reacted by added player cities, vehicles and quests. To this day SWG still has the BEST crafting system in any MMORPG. 

WoW came along  with pretty graphics, cute characters and tons of quests. From the very start of the game you had your hand held from quest to quest. It was designed in such a way that you were almost never lost and confused, all the way to level 60. In fact the quests distracted you so much and in such a way, you could actually play them over and over with a multitude of Alt characters. 

SWG&#039;s initial allure was the blatant complexty in its skill and crafting systems. Later in their quests. WoW&#039;s major allure was you have your hand held start to finish with more quests than you can dream of. Even with 5 alts and you could take a different route and only overlay a few quests to get to 60. 

In my honest opinion, a sandbox game is a pipe dream. People are in general sheep in need of guidance. We&#039;re trained to be followers from an early age. It is this very reason why WoW has 11 million subscribers and the games that allow you to do what you want and invent your own play style (SWG) has 150k players....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I started playing MMORPGs with Ultima Online. This game in my opinion had and still has the best character system out there. Even though EA tweaked it and made more cubby hole rules in the past years. The system was very organic and natural to say the least. I could cast spells and then switch to archer on a whim simply by using those relevant skills. It made the game deep and rewarding. There was no fixed character class. </p>
<p>I later played EverQuest with it&#8217;s more fixed Wizard, Warrior, Druid&#8230; Class system. You were a Wizard when you started, and a Wizard when you canceled your account. Unless you make an Alternate character, you were stuck. This was ok. </p>
<p>Star Wars Galaxies  rescued me from Everquest, I and soon quite happily canceled my EQ account. Originaly SOE had banked on the fact that there were millions of Rabid Star Wars fans out there dying to live in the universe and take on adventures of their own. So they skimped on questing, and instead focused on making the game look really pretty. Their classes point based system worked out nice at first. I could be a master in 3 very  different professions if I so desired. But could only really excell in one fixed one if I chose to go the elite profession path. THis added huge depth to the game. </p>
<p>The failing point with SWG was in fact it&#8217;s huge open worlds with nothing to do (and horrible city street designs). They had thought the fans and players would create their own content and run the show as they saw fit. But on launch people logged into the game, got confused and said &#8220;wow it looks pretty, what do I do now?&#8221;. SOE reacted by added player cities, vehicles and quests. To this day SWG still has the BEST crafting system in any MMORPG. </p>
<p>WoW came along  with pretty graphics, cute characters and tons of quests. From the very start of the game you had your hand held from quest to quest. It was designed in such a way that you were almost never lost and confused, all the way to level 60. In fact the quests distracted you so much and in such a way, you could actually play them over and over with a multitude of Alt characters. </p>
<p>SWG&#8217;s initial allure was the blatant complexty in its skill and crafting systems. Later in their quests. WoW&#8217;s major allure was you have your hand held start to finish with more quests than you can dream of. Even with 5 alts and you could take a different route and only overlay a few quests to get to 60. </p>
<p>In my honest opinion, a sandbox game is a pipe dream. People are in general sheep in need of guidance. We&#8217;re trained to be followers from an early age. It is this very reason why WoW has 11 million subscribers and the games that allow you to do what you want and invent your own play style (SWG) has 150k players&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Morais</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/comment-page-1/#comment-6939</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Morais</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 20:16:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/#comment-6939</guid>
		<description>Great Article, SWG was a great MMORPG in the sense it let you do just about anything you wanted.  The problem it had was to much choice, and not enough content, not to mention the numerous bugs, that i see it still has. SOE just thought Star Wars Fans would make their own content. For a while at the beginning this was the case.  

My ideal MMORPG would have a Skill system as opposed to a class system so I could take advantage of different skills and make my Master Jack of all trades if I want, or dedicate my skills to one or two profession types.  But instead of having 33 professions like SWG had, maybe narrow it down some.  In other words instead of having 5 or more tyypes of combat professions create a combat profession with skill trees for the diferent combat styles i.e. tank, long range, etc...  Instead of 5 different crafting professions create one crafter with different skill trees for weapons, armor etc...  

Content was a big issue too.  Don&#039;t release a game that was only half done.  More time should be spent on creating quests with a storyline, and interaction with NPC&#039;s.  Harder quests give greater rewards. SWG had the capability of creating quests that spanned planets, and could encompass space flight, as well as dungeons.  Make each quest like a mini star wars movie.

A huge problem that SWG had also was the Jedi System.  Once people uncovered that unlocking different professions would eventually get you to Jedi that was a huge downfall for the game.  People no longer were participating in PVP, or raids, now they were busyin grinding away at skills to become a master entertainer because it might unlock the uber Jedi profession.

For a sandbox game to work you need to allow diversity in game play, but you also have to limit the choices and balance things so that you don&#039;t have one combination annihilating others in battle (i.e. Jedi).  But you also have to have content so that people have other things to do besides PVP, and grinding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great Article, SWG was a great MMORPG in the sense it let you do just about anything you wanted.  The problem it had was to much choice, and not enough content, not to mention the numerous bugs, that i see it still has. SOE just thought Star Wars Fans would make their own content. For a while at the beginning this was the case.  </p>
<p>My ideal MMORPG would have a Skill system as opposed to a class system so I could take advantage of different skills and make my Master Jack of all trades if I want, or dedicate my skills to one or two profession types.  But instead of having 33 professions like SWG had, maybe narrow it down some.  In other words instead of having 5 or more tyypes of combat professions create a combat profession with skill trees for the diferent combat styles i.e. tank, long range, etc&#8230;  Instead of 5 different crafting professions create one crafter with different skill trees for weapons, armor etc&#8230;  </p>
<p>Content was a big issue too.  Don&#8217;t release a game that was only half done.  More time should be spent on creating quests with a storyline, and interaction with NPC&#8217;s.  Harder quests give greater rewards. SWG had the capability of creating quests that spanned planets, and could encompass space flight, as well as dungeons.  Make each quest like a mini star wars movie.</p>
<p>A huge problem that SWG had also was the Jedi System.  Once people uncovered that unlocking different professions would eventually get you to Jedi that was a huge downfall for the game.  People no longer were participating in PVP, or raids, now they were busyin grinding away at skills to become a master entertainer because it might unlock the uber Jedi profession.</p>
<p>For a sandbox game to work you need to allow diversity in game play, but you also have to limit the choices and balance things so that you don&#8217;t have one combination annihilating others in battle (i.e. Jedi).  But you also have to have content so that people have other things to do besides PVP, and grinding.</p>
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		<title>By: MMORPG - MMOCrunch - World of Warcraft &#187; Bothered by BioWare</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/comment-page-1/#comment-6633</link>
		<dc:creator>MMORPG - MMOCrunch - World of Warcraft &#187; Bothered by BioWare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Aug 2008 03:32:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/#comment-6633</guid>
		<description>[...] see, in a recent thread on the Bioware forums, I pointed to an earlier - and extremely popular - MMOCrunch editorial I&#8217;d written which ran, in part: MMORPGS have been dumbed down to the max and someone, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] see, in a recent thread on the Bioware forums, I pointed to an earlier &#8211; and extremely popular &#8211; MMOCrunch editorial I&#8217;d written which ran, in part: MMORPGS have been dumbed down to the max and someone, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Unintended Consequences of Quest Directed MMO&#8217;s &#124; Wolfshead Online</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/comment-page-1/#comment-6597</link>
		<dc:creator>Unintended Consequences of Quest Directed MMO&#8217;s &#124; Wolfshead Online</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Aug 2008 07:13:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/06/return-of-the-sandbox/#comment-6597</guid>
		<description>[...] MMO commentators are feeling the fatigue and burnout. Rob at MMOCrunch decries the current state of MMO design: I’ve long held the belief that MMORPGs are increasingly heading [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] MMO commentators are feeling the fatigue and burnout. Rob at MMOCrunch decries the current state of MMO design: I’ve long held the belief that MMORPGs are increasingly heading [...]</p>
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