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	<title>Comments on: MMORPGs: Finite, fragmented&#8230; and f*cked?</title>
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	<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/</link>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/comment-page-1/#comment-7488</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 23:52:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/#comment-7488</guid>
		<description>Oh, and I almost forgot to mention... to the comment from &quot;B!te me&quot; that said, &quot;... please lose the ZOMG WoW IS TEH AWESOME aura of your posts...&quot; FYI, I&#039;m not a WoW gamer at all. Not interested in it one iota. Infact, I have some pretty anti-WoW views at times. I mentioned it once in this post, as part of a long list of games on the market. I&#039;m perplexed by your comment, to be quite honest. It might sit better on an actual WoW-related post?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and I almost forgot to mention&#8230; to the comment from &#8220;B!te me&#8221; that said, &#8220;&#8230; please lose the ZOMG WoW IS TEH AWESOME aura of your posts&#8230;&#8221; FYI, I&#8217;m not a WoW gamer at all. Not interested in it one iota. Infact, I have some pretty anti-WoW views at times. I mentioned it once in this post, as part of a long list of games on the market. I&#8217;m perplexed by your comment, to be quite honest. It might sit better on an actual WoW-related post?</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/comment-page-1/#comment-7483</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 23:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/#comment-7483</guid>
		<description>Hi Paul, I used the term MMORPG exclusively throughout the piece to indicate that I wasn&#039;t referring to just any old game that can have a large number of users online at any time. So, I would suggest, you are in agreement with what I&#039;m saying about these &quot;quest based games&quot;. The only thing I would add is that not all MMORPGs are &quot;fantasy based&quot;. There are also sci-fi ones (SWG, AO), ancient world ones (ATITD I &amp; II), and so on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Paul, I used the term MMORPG exclusively throughout the piece to indicate that I wasn&#8217;t referring to just any old game that can have a large number of users online at any time. So, I would suggest, you are in agreement with what I&#8217;m saying about these &#8220;quest based games&#8221;. The only thing I would add is that not all MMORPGs are &#8220;fantasy based&#8221;. There are also sci-fi ones (SWG, AO), ancient world ones (ATITD I &amp; II), and so on.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul M</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/comment-page-1/#comment-7477</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:59:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/#comment-7477</guid>
		<description>Depending on the definition of &#039;MMOG&#039; I either completely agree or completely disagree with Rob&#039;s original post.  If &#039;MMOG&#039; means &#039;quest-based, fantasy-type role playing game&#039;, I think the market is nearing saturation - there are only so many people that will play those types of games, and WoW (for better or worse) has really cornered the market, and other games are going to attract essentially the same type of player.  Anything else that tries to match it is going to run into the same issues AoC had - big marketing spend, lots of buzz, and then (surprise, surprise) at launch it did not deliver everything everybody expected...  Well, clearly, that kind of polish takes some time, but by putting itself up as an immediate challenger, AoC had to live with the hype, as well as the downside associated with it.
However, if the definition for &#039;MMOG&#039; is any game that can be played online with massive numbers of players, I think there is a lot of headroom in the market, and a lot of different games ideas that have yet to be thought of.  How many people are playing Pogo now, how many do Pirates vs. Ninjas on Facebook?  
Its not long before those people decide to start playing other types of games, and once developers get through the technical barriers of getting lots of people into their worlds - highly scalable networks/servers, and well designed clients that can give decent frame rates while managing heaps of unique players - then they can start working on different game mechanics and different game ideas that will bring new people into massive-scaled online games.  I think some of those games might already exist (or be under development) out there, and if they are smart, they will focus on polish and ease of use before going BIG, because the standard is now much higher, and players will have less patience for crappy (or under-polished) games as there is always WoW to go back to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Depending on the definition of &#8216;MMOG&#8217; I either completely agree or completely disagree with Rob&#8217;s original post.  If &#8216;MMOG&#8217; means &#8216;quest-based, fantasy-type role playing game&#8217;, I think the market is nearing saturation &#8211; there are only so many people that will play those types of games, and WoW (for better or worse) has really cornered the market, and other games are going to attract essentially the same type of player.  Anything else that tries to match it is going to run into the same issues AoC had &#8211; big marketing spend, lots of buzz, and then (surprise, surprise) at launch it did not deliver everything everybody expected&#8230;  Well, clearly, that kind of polish takes some time, but by putting itself up as an immediate challenger, AoC had to live with the hype, as well as the downside associated with it.<br />
However, if the definition for &#8216;MMOG&#8217; is any game that can be played online with massive numbers of players, I think there is a lot of headroom in the market, and a lot of different games ideas that have yet to be thought of.  How many people are playing Pogo now, how many do Pirates vs. Ninjas on Facebook?<br />
Its not long before those people decide to start playing other types of games, and once developers get through the technical barriers of getting lots of people into their worlds &#8211; highly scalable networks/servers, and well designed clients that can give decent frame rates while managing heaps of unique players &#8211; then they can start working on different game mechanics and different game ideas that will bring new people into massive-scaled online games.  I think some of those games might already exist (or be under development) out there, and if they are smart, they will focus on polish and ease of use before going BIG, because the standard is now much higher, and players will have less patience for crappy (or under-polished) games as there is always WoW to go back to.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/comment-page-1/#comment-7472</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 21:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/#comment-7472</guid>
		<description>Raul, you have a rather large comment posted up there as the third comment to the post, so your opinion on the topic certainly isn&#039;t being deleted. Anyone with a pair of eyes can quite clearly see that. What has been deleted, meanwhile, are pointless personal attacks. Continue to make them, and we&#039;ll continue to delete them - I can&#039;t be clearer than that. If, however, you want to post more in response to the actual topic, feel free.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raul, you have a rather large comment posted up there as the third comment to the post, so your opinion on the topic certainly isn&#8217;t being deleted. Anyone with a pair of eyes can quite clearly see that. What has been deleted, meanwhile, are pointless personal attacks. Continue to make them, and we&#8217;ll continue to delete them &#8211; I can&#8217;t be clearer than that. If, however, you want to post more in response to the actual topic, feel free.</p>
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		<title>By: Raul</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/comment-page-1/#comment-7458</link>
		<dc:creator>Raul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:54:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/#comment-7458</guid>
		<description>Comments getting deleted for disagreeing with the irrational views of the writer. Can&#039;t handle negativity can ya?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comments getting deleted for disagreeing with the irrational views of the writer. Can&#8217;t handle negativity can ya?</p>
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		<title>By: Dagget</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/comment-page-1/#comment-7438</link>
		<dc:creator>Dagget</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/#comment-7438</guid>
		<description>I think WoW has probably already pulled in 80% of the potential paying playerbase out there.  It is everywhere, discussed in every workplace, etc...  So while the market may still grow, it will be at a very gradual rate and, for the most part, fluctuations in subscribers to each game will simply be a reflection of which games the current crowd is most interested in.  The settled game companies know this, and they know that to grow their products they will need to primarily pull subscribers away from other current MMO&#039;s.

Any new games coming out have now enormous hurdles to clear in terms of polish and &#039;conformity&#039; to the perceived requirements to make a successful MMO, and the players who will trial the games have now well formed preconceptions of what an MMO is and must do.

At the same time, those games that got in the door early (UO/EQ/AO/SWG etc...) should be able to hold steady subscriber bases as long as they gradually add content.  If the parent game companies recognize this, and scale overhead and support accordingly, they can make a small but tidy profit for years to come.  Their games don&#039;t match the current &#039;template&#039; for how to make an MMO but they tend to have more depth and quirks than the bland new cookie-cutter offerings and that will hold down a paying subscriber base(nobody will ever make a new game with mechanics like the original SWG or current AO, for example).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think WoW has probably already pulled in 80% of the potential paying playerbase out there.  It is everywhere, discussed in every workplace, etc&#8230;  So while the market may still grow, it will be at a very gradual rate and, for the most part, fluctuations in subscribers to each game will simply be a reflection of which games the current crowd is most interested in.  The settled game companies know this, and they know that to grow their products they will need to primarily pull subscribers away from other current MMO&#8217;s.</p>
<p>Any new games coming out have now enormous hurdles to clear in terms of polish and &#8216;conformity&#8217; to the perceived requirements to make a successful MMO, and the players who will trial the games have now well formed preconceptions of what an MMO is and must do.</p>
<p>At the same time, those games that got in the door early (UO/EQ/AO/SWG etc&#8230;) should be able to hold steady subscriber bases as long as they gradually add content.  If the parent game companies recognize this, and scale overhead and support accordingly, they can make a small but tidy profit for years to come.  Their games don&#8217;t match the current &#8216;template&#8217; for how to make an MMO but they tend to have more depth and quirks than the bland new cookie-cutter offerings and that will hold down a paying subscriber base(nobody will ever make a new game with mechanics like the original SWG or current AO, for example).</p>
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		<title>By: David Kidd</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/comment-page-1/#comment-7434</link>
		<dc:creator>David Kidd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:34:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/#comment-7434</guid>
		<description>Nice post, Rob. And I share your SWG lamentations.

Regarding the finite audience, I&#039;m inclined to think that games like Spore are more likely to expand the market more than traditional MMOs are. Spore&#039;s asynchronous social model is just the kind of thing to show non-gamers and non-MMO gamers just how much more interesting games can be when others are involved. It&#039;s a gateway drug to bigger things. Kinda like how my mum played bowling on the Wii one Christmas, which dramatically changed her perspective idea about what video games could be. Now she wants a DS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post, Rob. And I share your SWG lamentations.</p>
<p>Regarding the finite audience, I&#8217;m inclined to think that games like Spore are more likely to expand the market more than traditional MMOs are. Spore&#8217;s asynchronous social model is just the kind of thing to show non-gamers and non-MMO gamers just how much more interesting games can be when others are involved. It&#8217;s a gateway drug to bigger things. Kinda like how my mum played bowling on the Wii one Christmas, which dramatically changed her perspective idea about what video games could be. Now she wants a DS.</p>
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		<title>By: B!te me</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/comment-page-1/#comment-7428</link>
		<dc:creator>B!te me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 11:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/#comment-7428</guid>
		<description>another website full of WoW fans.... seriously, im happy that some of you (all of you that write these articles) may be WoW fans and have te opinion that WoW is some unearthly god of MMO&#039;s. but please lose the ZOMG WoW IS TEH AWESOME aura of your posts. Im not just referring to this post but most of the ones i read, the post about the WoW killer saying made it sound like it&#039;d made you cry for 40 days. 
You lot really sound like typical deluded WoW fanboys... &#039;reviewing&#039; other MMO&#039;s and then calling them because there not identical to WoW, of course age of conan will be crash prone etc, thats because it was just released

so im MY conclusion, if your going to write these blogs try to be a little more mature, although i love WoW myself it IS becoming swiftly outdated, its about time blizz got to work on a second new warcraft MMO if you ask me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>another website full of WoW fans&#8230;. seriously, im happy that some of you (all of you that write these articles) may be WoW fans and have te opinion that WoW is some unearthly god of MMO&#8217;s. but please lose the ZOMG WoW IS TEH AWESOME aura of your posts. Im not just referring to this post but most of the ones i read, the post about the WoW killer saying made it sound like it&#8217;d made you cry for 40 days.<br />
You lot really sound like typical deluded WoW fanboys&#8230; &#8216;reviewing&#8217; other MMO&#8217;s and then calling them because there not identical to WoW, of course age of conan will be crash prone etc, thats because it was just released</p>
<p>so im MY conclusion, if your going to write these blogs try to be a little more mature, although i love WoW myself it IS becoming swiftly outdated, its about time blizz got to work on a second new warcraft MMO if you ask me.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/comment-page-1/#comment-7382</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 23:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/#comment-7382</guid>
		<description>Right on, Oz :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right on, Oz <img src='http://www.mmocrunch.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Oz</title>
		<link>http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/comment-page-1/#comment-7343</link>
		<dc:creator>Oz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mmocrunch.com/2008/08/24/finite-fragmented-and-fcked/#comment-7343</guid>
		<description>&quot;Business ruins the industry&quot; as my friend mike said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Business ruins the industry&#8221; as my friend mike said.</p>
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